Ideals are never fully attainable

Earlier today, my wife posted a retort to this meme she found from “the Homeschool Snark Shark:”

Her response was, “So are we to not strive for this? Gotta love the snark.”

This demonstrates an underlying approach to macro issues that I have observed is lost on most women, so her comment actually made me proud. Namely, that if an ideal is presented (in this case by God Himself) and something about the current context makes it difficult to conceptualize, apply or achieve, this does not mean we give into the natural human tendency toward complacency and laziness. Instead we strive to achieve it anyway. If we fail, we get up and keep trying. This is a heuristic that I can endorse 100 percent. Like I said, I was impressed with how Mychael internalized the message and responded to it.

At around the same time, I was engaged in this conversation over at Dalrock.

The conversation turned to a critique of the 90’s mens movement known as Promise Keepers, and I made these statements:

I never attended a Promise Keepers rally but a lot of guys I knew did. It was a big deal in the 90s. I was a young married guy very involved in evangelical circles and a leader in my church.

Promise keepers held the basic premise that men were not keeping their promises. (Basically marriage vows of fidelity, sacrifice etc.)

This was the conventional wisdom and as we see by dalrocks op still the same.

I couldn’t articulate it then, but they always seemed like giant, stadium sized group therapy sessions which are deeply grotesque to me.

30,000 men raising their hands to the air, sobbing over the guilt of not trying hard enough and resolving to do “better” while never occurring to them that sacraments require both parties to keep promises.

A few years later, I was being frivorced, just like them.

And…

Not to put too fine a point on it, but yes–this is precisely why it didn’t work. They all came home, got on their knees in front of their wives, (some of them even crying) prayed with them, promised to take the kids to more ball games, do more chores, and their wives lost all respect for them.

They thought they had found the key–the holy grail of getting their wives to respect them (which is what men actually want). Work harder! (Like Boxer) and it failed.

And also…

This is why you see so much writing and commenting in the manosphere about women’s solipsism. I would probably argue just a little that this is the exact right word, but it speaks to one of the great myths of the current age. That is–supposedly women are so much more emotionally sophisticated than men.

But the evidence shows something much more different. It was men (in huge numbers) who assessed their own marriages and concluded that whatever was wrong with them was their own fault. Therefore, I will band together with other men, openly discuss where I have failed and my brothers will keep me accountable.

This is the highest level of introspection one can achieve, really. It is the macro version of Christs commandment to first look to remove the mote from your own eye. Men internalize this message and make changes. (Listening to their pastors and wives telling them the supposed secrets to success involve being “exhausted” at the end of the day.)

Where was the commensurate women’s movement of the day?

Hopefully not too much context is lost by pulling those quotes out like that.

Now, it would be perfectly reasonable to conclude then, as commenter Oscar did:

So, what you’re saying is that the husbands led, and their wives didn’t follow.

And there is a sense in which this is true. It follows in a linear fashion. In my profession, we would call this linear, logical and goal directed. Not everything that the western collective mind produced is bad. And, as I have hammered on many times before, I am culturally western and theologically eastern.

But imagine for a moment if we could transcend this type of transactional thinking, just as a thought experiment. Under what conditions might a commensurate women’s movement spring up and what would it look like? And further allow yourself the thought that it arose organically somewhat coincidental to the Promise Keepers. Such a movement would then be independent of the need for women en masse to respond to mens attempt to win their wives over without a word. (Dalrock calls this marital “cross dressing because it is exactly the opposite model proposed in scripture).  They would have been convicted of their own failings and disobedience to clear Christian teachings on submission, sweetness, modesty, etc. The common denominator here would be the Holy Spirit Himself, as both groups decided to be better husbands and wives according to the scripture.

When I go to confession, my priest in his totally awesome Serbian accent always comes to this part of the sacrament:

Scott. As you know, God is not willing to forgive those who do not also have forgiveness in their hearts for the ones they have something against. So, do you have anything against any brothers or sisters you need to let go of and confess? 

I always know its coming. And every time, I’m  not prepared for it. I stutter through it, squirm, etc. But on my knees with that stole on my head in front of the altar, kind of makes it imperative to search yourself. I think God will strike me dead if I don’t assess that part accurately.

All of spiritual discipline is like that. I figure, if its something that you personally find hard to do–but God asks you to do it anyway, you should probably do more of it. Struggle with overeating? Restrict your calories  more. Struggle with loving your wife even when she is acting unlovable? Love her more. Struggle with obeying your husband because you think you know better? Submit and get over yourself.

Getting back to Promise Keepers–it is true that the guys in that movement did not recognize (or were afraid to confront) much of the rebellion that goes unchecked and even encouraged by their pastors. This cannot be excused.

If may also be true that women do not naturally respond with graciousness at the sight of their husbands trying harder, this is also something that must be addressed. I don’t actually believe that women struggle with empathy. I do, however believe they tend to lack the courage and/or motivation to turn the data provided by empathic responses into actionable items. In other words, the kind of empathy that changes your life and the lives around you. This is what happens when you see something that is not right and then you make a series of decisions about what can be done, and then do them. But no one escapes the Lords wrath in the end when He will ask “why did you stubbornly wait to do the right thing?” and we respond:

“I was waiting for the other person to go first.”

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27 thoughts on “Ideals are never fully attainable

  1. Pingback: Leave your ego at the door [Col 3] | Dark Brightness

  2. Scott – your article trigger an avalanch of thoughts, mostly concerning the contradiction between the “righteous” man of the Old Testament and the words of Jesus “love your God and love your neighbor; in these are fulfilled all the law and prophets”. By Jesus’ own words, we know it won’t be the righteous man of the Old Testament that is invited to partake of the Tree of Life planted by the river flowing from the throne of God – so I have a bit of trouble with the question that concludes your article – “why did you stubbornly wait … ” That image implies that we need to present ourselves as righteous, rather than as abject sinners, pointing to the blood of Jesus on the Cross as the shed blood that God requires for the forgiveness of sin (Hebrews 9:22). The Old Testament is filled with examples of “righteous” men, including the Proverbs 31 woman. By Jesus own words, being righteous (a Proverbs 31 woman) won’t get us past the Judgement Seat and over to the Tree of Life.

    But, in dealing with all of the thoughts triggered, this thought rises higher than all the others: … no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by [help of] the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3) No one can accept the Lordship of Jesus over his life except by [help of] the Holy Spirit. We can only do what Jesus said were the two greatest commandments, love God and neighbor, with the help of the Holy Spirit. “I was waiting for the other person to go first” is a blatant admission that the Holy Spirit is not at work in that person’s life.

    If we can’t say that “Jesus is Lord” [of our lives / over our lives] without the help of the Holy Spirit, then we must admit that “we can’t do it by ourselves”. So, if someone is not performing as expected, the criticism cannot be that they were waiting for the other person to act first. The criticism must be that they are not allowing the power of the Holy Spirit to act in their lives.

    Does this truth about the role of the Holy Spirit in our ability to “do the right thing” apply as much to women as it does to men? If it does, what accounts for the differences in behavior between man and women that Scott chronicled in the original post above. (Rhetorical questions)

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  3. RichardP-

    I probably won’t get into a discussion here about what precisely will happen in the end times, as it is not the kind of thing anyone ever changes their minds about.

    But on the greater point you mentioned–this raises a number of fundamental questions.

    The questions have to do with basic fairness applied in a inherently unfair world. The word “hypocrite” is thrown around so much these days just another tactic for people to disregard a standard, in essence by saying “yeah, but.”

    That “yeah, but” can be followed by an infinite number of scenarios or mitigating factors until you just give up on having the standard in the first place, which is the point.

    “I’m short.”
    “I’m a member of a historically oppressed group.”
    “It was different because I have this condition.”
    “she had help.”

    You can quickly see where, over time, social justice warriors came from and our rapidly accelerating collapse into total subjectivity.

    The point of this post, of course, was not really about what the Proverbs 31 wife had or didn’t have. Mychaels comment made it pretty clear, or at least I thought it did. Namely–either Proverbs 31 has an application for today’s wife and mother, or we throw it out completely. We already know we will miss the mark, but given your situation, in this time and place, you still have to see what is there in that passage and try to live it. It may look different for you and me, but its there for a reason. But, we complete the circle when we note–people really don’t like being compared to a standard and will unleash a tremendous amount of verbal judo and violence to wiggle out of it.

    And then it gets really sticky. Because the actual definition of hypocrite has to do with having two different standards–commonly called a double standard. “It is Ok for me, but not OK for you.”

    The libertarian, when confronted with this problem (because some of those excuses actually kind of make sense) tries to distill everything down to basically holding everyone accountable for the big stuff. And there is a sense in which can you pull this line of thinking straight from the Bible. After all, the “big stuff” tend to be things like “thou shalt not murder” and “thou shalt not steal.” Can’t we all agree to hold everyone, no matter their situation to THAT standard?

    The non-hypocrite says “its NOT OK for either of us to do it.” I think this is the definition of hypocrite/non-hypocrite Jesus was always warning us about. ‘

    But, as we have seen–and the manosphere has been instrumental in reminding us–men and women are quite different–in every conceivable way. Even in their approach to understanding what is fair, what is just, what is a good excuse to get out of something, how to employ those excuses, ad infinitum

    And so, one of the ways I have tried to reconcile all this in my own life is — comapassion in the micro,, standards in the macro. In the meantime I continue to try to work out my salvation within a context where there really is no “macro” anymore.

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  4. All of spiritual discipline is like that. I figure, if its something that you personally find hard to do–but God asks you to do it anyway, you should probably do more of it. Struggle with overeating? Restrict your calories more. Struggle with loving your wife even when she is acting unlovable? Love her more. Struggle with obeying your husband because you think you know better? Submit and get over yourself.

    So good.

    Our conversations in the Men’s Sphere instruct me in the mystery of communication; of how information is transferred and processed; particularly among men. It is amazing. I mean: You talk about one thing, and I disagree. I say so, and then I talk about something else…but that something else has been influenced–pulled towards agreement–by your first statement, and I don’t even know it. And vice versa, and so on back and forth.

    And there is the matrix-ing of information. Months ago Oscar recommended to me Mark Rippetoe’s Starting Strength. Well, Oscar is a big strong guy so I listen to him. I buy Rippetoe’s book and listen to his podcast, and do you know what he says is the best recovery for injury? Lifting weights with the injured limb. He says that physical therapy is a sham which trains one to be weak. Compare that to the words I quoted of you.

    Meanwhile, last year someone somewhere linked to an episode of Joe Rogan’s podcast which featured a clinical psychologist and professor named Jordan Peterson. His prescription for solving problems (say, a phobia) is athwart our mass media’s prescription. They say that we should make the problem go away, or that the problem isn’t real. Peterson says (I paraphrase), “No, the problem is real and it’s not going to go away. What you have to do is become stronger than the problem. And you can just like everybody else. Use a tool, chop up the problem into approachable pieces, and then overcome them one by one. The problem doesn’t stop being scary. You just learn to become stronger.”

    In all three cases (your post here, Rippetoe, and Peterson) what is brought to mind I will quote below. And it makes sense of why we have a physical body which must die; yet why we are to have hope for an eternal life after that. Here is St. Paul from Romans 5:

    Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

    That hope is that this–life–isn’t just a game. It’s not futile to get stronger (mentally and physically) now only to get weak and die later. Nor is it just of temporal utility; the strength gained isn’t just to make our short lives easier for now. Suffering here is the opportunity to learn to have faith and so to train for eternity.

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  5. Pingback: We Do Not Box the Air | Things that We have Heard and Known

  6. Does the modern woman not have a dishwasher, and a washing machine, a dryer, a vacuum, and a sewing machine? If that’s not recognized as domestic help then there’s no hope.

    Liked by 2 people

  7. @ Caspar,

    Modern women cannot envision life without those things. The vast, overwhelming majority had at least some access to them their whole lives. So as far as they are concerned those are just normal things which every woman has everywhere. [Theory to follow] And since women conceptualize time differently than men, they don’t consider the fact that in the past those things didn’t exist. Thus, those appliances are baked into their assumptions of what is normal at all times and in all places.

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  8. Pingback: The Courage to Empathize | Donal Graeme

  9. I have learnt to be deeply sceptical of empathy.

    What it does, is encourage you to use yourself – your own subjective feelings and imagination – to “understand” and judge others. Does not scripture itself insist that we should be wary of doing so because we do NOT know what is in their hearts?

    Liked by 1 person

  10. @ Cane

    “Months ago Oscar recommended to me Mark Rippetoe’s Starting Strength. Well, Oscar is a big strong guy so I listen to him. I buy Rippetoe’s book and listen to his podcast… ”

    Woah, let’s not get carried away! I’m about as ordinary as it gets!

    But seriously, I’m glad it was useful to you. I’m looking at going through the program again in a few months. I’ve been trying to avoid surgery on a torn meniscus in my right knee for years, but it’s feeling pretty unavoidable now. Once I’m well enough to squat again, I’ll have to start the program from the beginning. It’ll be interesting to see how it goes this time.

    On a side note, an old buddy of mine from the 1st Engineer Battalion recently joined my Reserve detachment, and he’s even more messed up than I am! He was in a vehicle that was struck by an IED buried under a road in Afghanistan, so his spine is pretty messed up, and he’s only 32.

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  11. Modern women cannot envision life without those things. The vast, overwhelming majority had at least some access to them their whole lives. So as far as they are concerned those are just normal things which every woman has everywhere.

    Having grown up hanging clothes on a line (the dryer was for rainy days because electric bill), and without a dishwasher, I laughed at this. In fact, my dishwasher has been broken for a year. We purposely declined to fix or replace it. Not because we can’t, but because it’s good for the girls (and for me!) to stand there and wash the dishes.

    I know a lot of people who don’t have or don’t use a dishwasher on purpose. And a fair number of rural people (mostly relatives) who hang their clothes on a line because they want to. So no worries. We’re a pampered lot to be sure, but there are young women washing dishes and hanging clothes.

    To the point of the post. I agree with Mychael that there is far too much snark in the world. She is absolutely right about that. Not everything needs to be fisked and/or diluted. With that said, I have always viewed Proverbs 31 not only as an ideal, but also as a picture of a full life rather than a moment in time. It’s not as if young children have the level of understanding required to “rise up and call their mother blessed”. These are adult kids who have acquired some perspective, and it is a joy when you get to experience that.

    Seasons of life offer opportunities to do all of the things listed, but very rarely simultaneously. The fact that people (and Americans in particular) have a hard time seeing the long view and prefer to try to be all things at all times (usually for pride or bragging rights) keeps us from properly reading the Proverbs 31 “ideal woman” vignette in context.

    @ Peter W:

    I totally agree with you about empathy, the modern buzzword which is little more than another opportunity for us to feel good about ourselves. I could go on and on with my thoughts on that and perhaps will at some point. Just not today.

    Liked by 1 person

  12. @Elspeth

    With that said, I have always viewed Proverbs 31 not only as an ideal, but also as a picture of a full life rather than a moment in time. It’s not as if young children have the level of understanding required to “rise up and call their mother blessed”. These are adult kids who have acquired some perspective, and it is a joy when you get to experience that.

    This is true. Let me know when you have convinced the other Christian women that adult, unmarried children should stay at home under their fathers’ authority–rather than move out to explore and do their own independent thing–so that mothers can reap their rewards.

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  13. We’ve experienced a lot of good things as a result of remaining a cohesive unit longet than most families, Cane. But I have to say, from what I have witnessed, it’s ususally much more likely that fathers are the ones who more likely to kick their kids out of the nest. I’ve witnessed this by a very large margin over mothers, in fact.

    Now, it’s true that mothers (especially those who married and had babies young) are more likely to encourage their daughters to experience more of life before settling down, but it’s usually the dads wo are ready to have their houses free of their progeny.

    Perhaps you have witnessed something different. It seems to me though that convincing fathers to be willing to harbor their children longer and mothers to learn how to stop “mothering” adults is more of a realistic issue than Christian women needing to be told to keep their unmarried adult children at home.

    My husband is a pretty rare exception (yes, I know I say it a lot but he really is exceptional in the truest sense) with his stated expression to his kids that they are welcome to stay in his home until marriage so long as they show proper respect and contribute accordingly.

    Liked by 1 person

  14. [Theory to follow] And since women conceptualize time differently than men, they don’t consider the fact that in the past those things didn’t exist. Thus, those appliances are baked into their assumptions of what is normal at all times and in all places.

    [More theory] Thus, a reason to regularly practice fasting in all things, to build up in everyone an appreciation that what we have are luxuries that fill wants, not need.

    Including the very food we eat, for man does not live by bread alone.

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  15. @Elspeth

    But I have to say, from what I have witnessed, it’s ususally much more likely that fathers are the ones who more likely to kick their kids out of the nest. I’ve witnessed this by a very large margin over mothers, in fact.

    Now, it’s true that mothers (especially those who married and had babies young) are more likely to encourage their daughters to experience more of life before settling down, but it’s usually the dads wo are ready to have their houses free of their progeny.

    I see this. My experience is that fathers talk this way because they believe it’s the “American Way”, and greatly fear to appear controlling. It’s also my experience that mothers don’t talk about the kids leaving so much as they encourage young adults to “explore”, and that they argue against fathers who put restrictions on the young adults. A common example of this is daughter moves out, can’t make bills, and suddenly dad is the bad guy for saying “You made your bed, now sleep in it.” So you work your row, and I’ll work mine.

    I recall that when I brought this up at a previous time (daughters staying home until marriage is a recurring theme for me) that you said your husband expected your kids to move out on their own. It stuck out to me because I remember biting my tongue instead of replying.

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  16. Cane/Elspeth-

    Some while back I had to reconcile the very thing you are discussing.

    If we say we are into “traditional” forms of family living, and simultaneously complain about how screwed up and antithetical to our values the world and the MMP is, what is the morally consistent conclusion?

    That there is a not-small-probability my children will be living with me for a long time. (That is, assuming they internalize what I believe. Its a “free” country and they can do whatever they want).

    This is related to why I asked my MIL to come live with us. Yes, she helps out with child care and for this I am grateful. But it’s rent free living for her so there is a significant financial cost to me. I try very hard to be cognizant of the fact that this creates a power differential in which I can lord over her with the “my house, my rules” thing. That is a challenge and I hope I have not abused it. But it also creates a multi-generational symbiosis and my kids have the benefit of the connection across generations. So I feel it is worth it. Both my MIL and kids benefit from this, really.

    I try really hard to be a kind, benevolent leader around here. I am very slow to make decisions, and I consult (guys like you, Oscar, and my priest) regularly before making them. I think this is one of the biggest heartaches and frustrations of all this. People watch these stupid TV programs like “Big Love” or those retarded “reality shows” about Hutterites and Amish people and draw really weird conclusions.

    In doing so, I am normalizing this arrangement for my kids (they are growing up not thinking this is weird). The message I am sending is one of family loyalty and sticking together. I have also openly invited my brothers–both not married, and older than me–to come if they need to in their old age. Again, with my stated values, what choice to I have? To see them sequestered into a nursing home without the benefit of connecting with and loving their nieces and nephews because we live thousands of miles away? I should rather just put a bullet in their heads when their usefulness as individual, American atomized consumption units has worn out. I would want the last faces they ever see to be people who love them.

    Likewise, I have also stated that when my kids are of marrying age (which has been discussed around this part of the internet as late teens/early twenties) I will do whatever I can to help them form families up to and including doing so under my roof because the family sticking together is the basis of the kind of civilization I would like to see rebuilt. I have no tradition of this to look back on. I have never seen it in my family. I hope that if this arrangement comes up, Mychael and I provide them with the privacy they need but also for them to know they have some obligations. The same is true for if they are older and have not found spouses yet.

    Most Americans will look at this and call it “creepy.” I understand. I was the same way, probably 4-5 years ago.

    Elsewhere (on a blog that critiques the manosphere) it was suggested that this is all easier for me because I am from an eastern faith tradition. But this is not true. I converted (technically “reverted”– but that’s kind of the point) to it 2 years ago, and it was never a part of my life before. Every day of this I am out on a limb, on faith alone that I am doing the right thing for my kids.

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  17. Somewhere along the way he had a change if heart and I had nothing to do with it. Depending on when/if marriage happens they still might leave but it won’t be because theyfelt pressure to do so.

    They are soon to be 22 and 23. Still here and enjoying it.

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  18. My father was the youngest of 7 and a lot of his siblings were gone when I was young. In his family (my husband’s as well actually) , nursing homes have not been used. My one uncle who never had children passed away in our guest room when I was 12.

    Of course when I was growing up black people didn’t do the nursing home thing anyway. Perhaps due to expense but elderly relatives always finished out their lived surrounded by family. Over the past 20 years however, nursing home usage is just normal regardless of race from what I can tell.

    I commend you for looking after your family. It is becoming a mark of distinction in much of the west.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. When I was 9-10 my mother was an “Activities Director” at a couple nursing homes. She used to bring me and my sister up to “play” with the old people. I hated it. I still hate nursing homes. They should call them “eldergartens”. It’s just another way to warehouse people who’ve become inconvenient.

    @Scott

    Likewise, I have also stated that when my kids are of marrying age (which has been discussed around this part of the internet as late teens/early twenties) I will do whatever I can to help them form families up to and including doing so under my roof because the family sticking together is the basis of the kind of civilization I would like to see rebuilt.

    My main thrust has been something like: “It’s unnatural for people to live alone”. People who live alone get themselves into a lot of trouble. I teach them that I expect them to live always live with family. When my eldest graduates college she’s going to move in with my MIL. She’s in a better marriage and job market (though still close to us) and living alone since my FIL died, just over a year ago.

    My view is that family is like a tree. The fruit and seeds fall from the tree, but they don’t blow over to California from Texas. Neighborhoods ought to be made up of a a couple scores of families rather than hundreds of different saplings. I have convinced two friends (since high school) to move our families into one neighborhood within two years. That is exciting.

    Liked by 2 people

  20. Pingback: Modern practice and ancient principles aren’t mutually exclusive… | Things I Wish I'd Known Sooner

  21. Elspeth,

    About household appliances/conveniences…. There might be a generational/demographic thing going on. While I know people who have lacked such things before (I did for a while), they are much more common than not over here on the West Coast. Most have at least some access to them, and usually it isn’t by choice for those who don’t. Also, and I will admit to some gut-estimation here… but the kind of people who make those snarky comments more often than not do have those appliances.

    Liked by 1 person

  22. Cane, Elspeth, your recent conversation about family and the effect parents have on children’s lives has been interesting to follow. I’ve a post in mind on the subject, the capper on my latest series. It is one I’ve been meaning to do for quite a while.

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  23. I guess it’s one thing if you truly can’t afford help (I assume you can’t) but I’d rather have a wife that ages like Ivanka Trump (who has nannies and help and time for beauty appointments) than someone who is going to be worn out by 35 (and tired and irritable for years before that). Don’t get why someone would freely choose otherwise.

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  24. @ Clay:

    Very few full-time wives and mothers have the resources to employ the level of help and/or beauty regimen of an Ivanka Trump.

    However, you don’t need to have enough money for nannies and maids in order to have a wife who isn’t worn out or ages well.

    Keep in mind that Ivanka Trump and Melania Trump (whom my husband think has a lot of wrinkles) are helped along by a level of wealth most of us will simply never enjoy. Without it, a wife can still age relatively well using the tools at her disposal.

    Worn out, irritable, overworked wives need to have realistic standards and appropriate boundaries as well as husbands who relieve some of the pressure many women feel to get “it all” done. My husband has standards for his some and children but included in those standards is the fact that he wants his wife well-rested, well-fed with nutritious food, with time to work out and naps as needed. He is very attuned to how I am handling high-stress times and he is quick to say, “That can wait. Come sit with me for a while.”

    This has two effects: The first is that motivates me to do MORE to satisfy his standards, not less, and the second is that I am not worn out, irritable, and overworked. This had led to a fairly good aging process to date, although genetics have probably played a big role as well.

    Not everyone is rich, so we need to stop expecting normal people with normal lives and normal incomes to present themselves at that level. But most wives can certainly do better with the proper support and appropriate effort.

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